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skyrider

1989-1998 Timeline: Insanity on Steroids

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1 hour ago, chockfull said:

The anal spectrometry of the dining rules alone far eclipses this description of coordinating napkins.  There is an entire dance.   Let me regale you about the time I forgot to put my knife down while taking a bite.  Very traumatic experience.  Also, wanting to correct my mother who grew up passing food around the table via Betty Crocker / Dear Abby and either way is fine.  Oh no.  Not correct according to proper Christian etiquette.  It must only go one way.

Then there is a sub-category of dining rules to do with the head table.  Only certain select server-girls are qualified enough to deal with this level of Christian etiquette.  This is the group that invented breaking lifesaver mints in half.  But curiously enough no males ever served in this capacity.  Only cute girls, possibly of the rating that could warrant a coach invite.  It looks transparent now - then not so much.

 

Sorry  to inform you that I was a server for the head table at Rome City...though I am not female I like to think that I was cute.:biglaugh:

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2 hours ago, chockfull said:

Let me regale you about the time I forgot to put my knife down while taking a bite.

OMG!!!

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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Sorry  to inform you that I was a server for the head table at Rome City...though I am not female I like to think that I was cute.:biglaugh:

Then you were safe. vpw and his cronies targeted young females.  lcm and his cronies targeted young females.  rfr and her cronies ("the shrew crew", thank you Tonto), target females.  Now that I think of it, it's strange you were even allowed to serve the head table.

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31 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

Then you were safe. vpw and his cronies targeted young females.  lcm and his cronies targeted young females.  rfr and her cronies ("the shrew crew", thank you Tonto), target females.  Now that I think of it, it's strange you were even allowed to serve the head table.

Strange indeed...there were a few other guys that served at the head table in Rome City...though I was trying to be funny about Chockfull’s remark - I do agree with his and your statement that it was another way to target their prey... looking back I do remember several ladies in my corps who were routinely  called upon to serve head table, or back “stage” of the Chapel - a few I knew pretty well and after some time they seemed to have become a little more sedate... withdrawn...not really sure how to describe my impression of a subtle change in their demeanor.

Edited by T-Bone
Clarity

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On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:47 AM, OldSkool said:

Please consider helping us inspire, encourage, and equip God's people by making a donation. 20% of all proceeds go directly to helping others spread the Good News in foreign countries. We need your help so we can continue building our website in order to reach others for Christ. A donation of any size is greatly appreciated. SImply click on the image below.

 

It really didnt take Dan too long to start asking for money.

 

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On 12/27/2016 at 5:12 PM, skyrider said:

1995 Rock of Ages: The Last One... Not sure if it was Tuesday or Wednesday when martindale started confronting the parents.  Main stage confrontation....not just the chain-of-command wherein the region -->limb-->down to the branches.  Nope.  The "homo-infiltration" charge got the rapt attention of everyone. The waves of confrontation swept through the crowd like strong breezes over a wheat field.  And, by the next morning (as I remember it).......martindale turned the roa into a class, of sorts.  Namely, each session built on the previous one.....therefore, "structured attendance."  That's one way to get people in the seats!

I remember this ROA.  It was my 2nd.  The first one i had gone out WOW.  I had just turned 21.  My parents were in res.  Both they AND my WOW team leader jumped on me and the other young adults on my team accusing us of being involved in whatever had happened at the gazebo.  We were all confused as to what the heck had gone down at the gazebo.  And in my young brain, i was a little upset that I hadn't been considered cool enough by those kids to be invited.

I think I had a brother who had been there.  He told me it was a bunch of clergy kids who had planned that whole thing.

A  few main memories of that ROA:

1.  My WOW family coordinator was DFAC at that rock.  She was too soft hearted to stand up to what was required of her.  I remember she would try to be authoritative with us, but her heart wasn't in it.  I remember seeing  her right after she was dropped (I had no idea what had happened) and she was wearing a hand written nametag instead of her WC one.  I was always getting in trouble for forgetting my nametag, so I said (joking) "where's your nametag? SOMEONE WILL THINK YOU GOT DROPPED!" Then I found out she had just come from being stripped of her WC status.  I wanted to melt into the ground.  I still feel bad about that.

2.  We had a girl on our WOW team who had been dropped for being a lesbian in the middle of the year.  She was a foundational class grad.  We were lucky as a team because we only lost her.  Other teams had been decimated, having to move in with other teams because there were so few left.

3.  On our way back to ROA from where we were on the field (way out in the SW usa) one of our vehicles broke down with a radiator hose that had split.  We fixed it with an "All Roads Lead to The Rock" bumper sticker.  We felt like we were super conquerors to come up with that solution and arrive in time for the rock.  We took the offending hose with its bumper sticker bandaid to present it to the WOW coordinator, thinking it would be a great example of God working in us to find a way to overcome.  Revelation or something.  I believe the WOW coordinator was J0hn R◇p.o., but I could be mistaken.  He and my WOW team coordinator were annoyed we had even considered they would care.  We should have believed better and the car wouldn't have broken in the first place.

4.  One of my brothers was slated to go out in the next wave of wows.  But the program had been cancelled.  Our parents were in residence.  He couldn't go back with them.  He had nothing and nowhere to go.  He ended up in something like a way home in Ann Arbor.  Whole life disrupted.

5.  I was still in debt when I went WOW.  But at the time I left I had been informed my student loans didn't count as debt.  In the middle of the year that changed.  I didn't have them paid off by the time the rock came around.  I was sure martindale would know by revelation that i had debt.  Or that they would run credit checks on all the wows.  Or something.  But no one knew.  I should have known then that they had no connection to God at all.

(Please excuse grammar and spelling...  I typed this all on my phone.  And it is a pain in the foot.)

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54 minutes ago, JavaJane said:

3.  On our way back to ROA from where we were on the field (way out in the SW usa) one of our vehicles broke down with a radiator hose that had split.  We fixed it with an "All Roads Lead to The Rock" bumper sticker.  We felt like we were super conquerors to come up with that solution and arrive in time for the rock.  We took the offending hose with its bumper sticker bandaid to present it to the WOW coordinator, thinking it would be a great example of God working in us to find a way to overcome.  Revelation or something.  I believe the WOW coordinator was J0hn R◇p.o., but I could be mistaken.  He and my WOW team coordinator were annoyed we had even considered they would care.  We should have believed better and the car wouldn't have broken in the first place.

This reminds me of a Biblical story.  Eli and Samuel.  Except that Eli was encouraging rather than being a condescending d-bag like herr Rupp.  Why it reminds me is God working in an individual and that not being recognized by someone who should have been most in tune.

 

Edited by chockfull

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1 hour ago, JavaJane said:

I remember this ROA.  It was my 2nd.  The first one i had gone out WOW.  I had just turned 21.  My parents were in res.  Both they AND my WOW team leader jumped on me and the other young adults on my team accusing us of being involved in whatever had happened at the gazebo.  We were all confused as to what the heck had gone down at the gazebo.  And in my young brain, i was a little upset that I hadn't been considered cool enough by those kids to be invited.

I think I had a brother who had been there.  He told me it was a bunch of clergy kids who had planned that whole thing.

A  few main memories of that ROA:

1.  My WOW family coordinator was DFAC at that rock.  She was too soft hearted to stand up to what was required of her.  I remember she would try to be authoritative with us, but her heart wasn't in it.  I remember seeing  her right after she was dropped (I had no idea what had happened) and she was wearing a hand written nametag instead of her WC one.  I was always getting in trouble for forgetting my nametag, so I said (joking) "where's your nametag? SOMEONE WILL THINK YOU GOT DROPPED!" Then I found out she had just come from being stripped of her WC status.  I wanted to melt into the ground.  I still feel bad about that.

2.  We had a girl on our WOW team who had been dropped for being a lesbian in the middle of the year.  She was a foundational class grad.  We were lucky as a team because we only lost her.  Other teams had been decimated, having to move in with other teams because there were so few left.

3.  On our way back to ROA from where we were on the field (way out in the SW usa) one of our vehicles broke down with a radiator hose that had split.  We fixed it with an "All Roads Lead to The Rock" bumper sticker.  We felt like we were super conquerors to come up with that solution and arrive in time for the rock.  We took the offending hose with its bumper sticker bandaid to present it to the WOW coordinator, thinking it would be a great example of God working in us to find a way to overcome.  Revelation or something.  I believe the WOW coordinator was J0hn R◇p.o., but I could be mistaken.  He and my WOW team coordinator were annoyed we had even considered they would care.  We should have believed better and the car wouldn't have broken in the first place.

4.  One of my brothers was slated to go out in the next wave of wows.  But the program had been cancelled.  Our parents were in residence.  He couldn't go back with them.  He had nothing and nowhere to go.  He ended up in something like a way home in Ann Arbor.  Whole life disrupted.

5.  I was still in debt when I went WOW.  But at the time I left I had been informed my student loans didn't count as debt.  In the middle of the year that changed.  I didn't have them paid off by the time the rock came around.  I was sure martindale would know by revelation that i had debt.  Or that they would run credit checks on all the wows.  Or something.  But no one knew.  I should have known then that they had no connection to God at all.

(Please excuse grammar and spelling...  I typed this all on my phone.  And it is a pain in the foot.)

Thanks for sharing your “footnotes” Java Jane - I am always fascinated by how folks had to deal with the escalating madness after we left in ‘86.

== == ==

FYI : as I side note, concerning posting by smartphone - I’m not sure what brand you have but I have an iPhone and will often draft a post in “notes” - then later copy and paste on Grease Spot - and before i submit post I click on “paste as plain text instead” at bottom under the post box - this straightens out any format / font issues...it’s an easy way to compose offline and “notes” helps on spelling with autocorrect.

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3 hours ago, JavaJane said:

I remember this ROA.  It was my 2nd.  The first one i had gone out WOW.  I had just turned 21.  My parents were in res.  Both they AND my WOW team leader jumped on me and the other young adults on my team accusing us of being involved in whatever had happened at the gazebo.  We were all confused as to what the heck had gone down at the gazebo.  And in my young brain, i was a little upset that I hadn't been considered cool enough by those kids to be invited.

I think I had a brother who had been there.  He told me it was a bunch of clergy kids who had planned that whole thing.

A  few main memories of that ROA:

1.  My WOW family coordinator was DFAC at that rock.  She was too soft hearted to stand up to what was required of her.  I remember she would try to be authoritative with us, but her heart wasn't in it.  I remember seeing  her right after she was dropped (I had no idea what had happened) and she was wearing a hand written nametag instead of her WC one.  I was always getting in trouble for forgetting my nametag, so I said (joking) "where's your nametag? SOMEONE WILL THINK YOU GOT DROPPED!" Then I found out she had just come from being stripped of her WC status.  I wanted to melt into the ground.  I still feel bad about that.

2.  We had a girl on our WOW team who had been dropped for being a lesbian in the middle of the year.  She was a foundational class grad.  We were lucky as a team because we only lost her.  Other teams had been decimated, having to move in with other teams because there were so few left.

3.  On our way back to ROA from where we were on the field (way out in the SW usa) one of our vehicles broke down with a radiator hose that had split.  We fixed it with an "All Roads Lead to The Rock" bumper sticker.  We felt like we were super conquerors to come up with that solution and arrive in time for the rock.  We took the offending hose with its bumper sticker bandaid to present it to the WOW coordinator, thinking it would be a great example of God working in us to find a way to overcome.  Revelation or something.  I believe the WOW coordinator was J0hn R◇p.o., but I could be mistaken.  He and my WOW team coordinator were annoyed we had even considered they would care.  We should have believed better and the car wouldn't have broken in the first place.

4.  One of my brothers was slated to go out in the next wave of wows.  But the program had been cancelled.  Our parents were in residence.  He couldn't go back with them.  He had nothing and nowhere to go.  He ended up in something like a way home in Ann Arbor.  Whole life disrupted.

5.  I was still in debt when I went WOW.  But at the time I left I had been informed my student loans didn't count as debt.  In the middle of the year that changed.  I didn't have them paid off by the time the rock came around.  I was sure martindale would know by revelation that i had debt.  Or that they would run credit checks on all the wows.  Or something.  But no one knew.  I should have known then that they had no connection to God at all.

(Please excuse grammar and spelling...  I typed this all on my phone.  And it is a pain in the foot.)

Just my thoughts, responding by your numbers...

 

2. Was she actually one, or was she not and just dropped for "GENUINE SPIRITUAL SUSPICION" (THEIR WORDS, NOT MINE)?   I've heard lots of people who did nothing wrong even by their standards got kicked out for SUSPECTED wrong-doing with no proof, under this odd excuse.   BTW, even if she WAS, this should have been caught long before she was assigned, let alone sent out.  If there was any sort of oversight- and, more to the point, divine revelation-  to the process, there should have been someone screening out inappropriate volunteers who were inappropriate for any number of reasons, some of which were known only to God Almighty. (We're not sending wows to Mesa, Az because God's warning us to change the locale-[earthquake later hits city],  God said this person isn't ready now [major dental surgery 3 months later, would have had to leave the field], this one doesn't match our standards because they're a closeted gay...)  As vpw founded it, and it remained for decades, the thing was open to whoever showed up with the money.  That was vpw's big standard for all programs. "You can stay as long as your money holds!" - vpw to lcm, on lcm remaining in the Corps.  

In other words, if it's true, then it's their fault for sending people out unvetted.  They disrupted the established groups by sending out unfit people, then dismissed them, disrupting the groups.  If it's false, then an innocent person was sent home for doing nothing wrong but being on the wrong end of their PARANOIA.   So, it's their fault if it's true, and it's their fault if it's false.

 

3.If he was that much better, he should have "shown you how it's done" by going to the car, praying over it, and healing the radiator hose like he wanted you to do. THEN you'd know how to do it. His lack of ability to do so was hidden by his accusation- but he was all talk and no action there- which he learned from twi, of course.

 

4. Their lack of planning left him high and dry.  They kept promoting stuff until hours before they stopped it. Then of course, it's your fault if you planned by listening to them instead of going by revelation. (Naturally, those who ignored them to go by revelation were lambasted or kicked out, depending on the specifics.) 

 

5. They lacked the skills to DO the credit checks, and were lazy.  Furthermore, they didn't care. You had your money up front, that was enough. Later, if you had to go home, you were sent home, no refunds.  Yes, divine revelation might have revealed something, but they knew how to FAKE that pretty well, not how to receive it.

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5 hours ago, JavaJane said:

On our way back to ROA from where we were on the field (way out in the SW usa) one of our vehicles broke down with a radiator hose that had split.  We fixed it with an "All Roads Lead to The Rock" bumper sticker. 

That was pretty clever!  (It probably WAS a miracle that it held!)

We took the offending hose with its bumper sticker bandaid to present it to the WOW coordinator, thinking it would be a great example of God working in us to find a way to overcome. 

That was pretty dumb.   :biglaugh:

(Please excuse grammar and spelling...  I typed this all on my phone.  And it is a pain in the foot.)

Apparently, the Greasespot cuss-blocker is still working!:rolleyes:

George

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On 1/5/2017 at 12:07 PM, skyrider said:

And one more item, on rent expense.......you could have someone move into your home on a long term basis.  This option should be thought through in detail with the wise counsel of your overseers and FINAL APPROVAL REQUIRED from the Trunk Office. (their words........added emphasis, by me).

The puppeteers were controlling our lives.

Im working my way through this thread page by page...  obviously I haven't been on the old gsc for a few.

This.  This explains why I was asked to move in to the Limb home.  I had thought it was because I was considered to be so spiritually mature.

It was not a good place for a single 20 something to live.  I loved that family a lot.  Especially the kids.  But it was uncomfortable for them and for me.  My social life was basically stopped in it's tracks.  Even if I came home sick from work I was sent to my room so as not to disturb or overhear whatever was being done elsewhere in the house.  And I couldn't cook or clean to their standard.  Constant reproof and correction.  

They didn't really want me there.  And now I see why I was asked.

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 5:12 PM, skyrider said:

1995 Rock of Ages: The Last OneFrom my perspective, this roa started out as same old, same old......since 1989, the smaller ones.  Since 1984, I had long held the opinion that these "festivals" were little more than repetitious herd-fests........moving groups from meeting to meeting.  Why didn't they ever do something..... ANYTHING....outside of the wierwille box?  Sigh.

But definitely, after a couple of days, martindale was irritated by teenagers at the gazebo late at night....and some who stayed in "tent city" not attending the evening teaching.  I'm sure others could fill in much more background on this than me.  Since I was a limb guy, I had a list of responsibilities on my plate......one of which was Mr. Coat&Tie Guy usher duties in the main tent.  Ugh.....it was so damn stupid.  Sh!t.....why was twi so anal with the dress code at roa?  It was this kind of stupid stuff that I deeply despised.

Not sure if it was Tuesday or Wednesday when martindale started confronting the parents.  Main stage confrontation....not just the chain-of-command wherein the region -->limb-->down to the branches.  Nope.  The "homo-infiltration" charge got the rapt attention of everyone. The waves of confrontation swept through the crowd like strong breezes over a wheat field.  And, by the next morning (as I remember it).......martindale turned the roa into a class, of sorts.  Namely, each session built on the previous one.....therefore, "structured attendance."  That's one way to get people in the seats!

I do remember this......a friend of mine, (spouse corps guy) asked for my counsel as to whether he should quit his job and go thru the corps program to be re-instated.  His wife was 7th corps and he was "corps spouse"....until martindale sent out that July 1994 "dump the corps spouse labels."  So, the corps spouse purge had knocked them for a loop and added stress to their marriage.  Well, I spend about 20 minutes with him and listening to his desires and goals.....I told him not to go into the corps program.  And, further.....I told him that I wasn't sure how many more years I was going to be "jumping all the hoops."  Years later, he thanked me aplenty for this counsel. 

The 1995 Rock of Ages will be long remembered as the "homo infiltration at roa".......but I don't describe it in those terms.  IMO.....there were dozens upon dozens in attendance who were dealing with "a purge" of some sort (debt, unproductive, corps spouse, etc.).  Martindale was adamant on devil spirit infiltration and possession.......but I'd seen this same movie by wierwille 15 years earlier.

The sooner martindale quit yelling......the sooner I could get out of that suit.

 

 

This all makes me wonder if somewhere deep down in his psyche (especially insecurities ) he felt threatened by homosexuals.

 

In this one article I read (link is at the end of my post) they said 

“The prejudice of homophobia may also stem from authoritarian parents, particularly those with homophobic views as well, the researchers added

"This study shows that if you are feeling that kind of visceral reaction to an out-group, ask yourself, 'Why?'" co-author Richard Ryan, a professor of psychology at the University of Rochester, said in a statement. "Those intense emotions should serve as a call to self-reflection."...

…”Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much,'" Ryan told LiveScience. "In addition, it appears that sometimes those who would oppress others have been oppressed themselves, and we can have some compassion for them too, they may be unaccepting of others because they cannot be accepting of themselves."

Ryan cautioned, however, that this link is only one source of anti-gay sentiments.”

== == ==

With the article mentioning that homophobia may sometimes stem from the influence of authoritarian parents and the person being oppressed - I thought of the variety of consequences to followers from wierwille’s megalomania...his authoritarian leadership...his heavy handed rule over the way corps...also of interest in this article is their mentioning "Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much"

...yeah, makes me wonder what wierwille thought of his own behavior if he was ever in a self-reflective frame of mind...I know nothing of any psyche stuff...just wanted to mention some things I thought about.

Link to article in Scientific American

Edited by T-Bone
formatting and clarity
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On 2/6/2017 at 7:23 AM, skyrider said:

Waysider.........the Fellow-Laborers program was quite the little indoctrination experience wasn't it?  Someday, maybe you should start a thread and give us a point-by-point accounting of it all.  It has many of the hallmarks of an isolated cult compound.

NOW.........looking back at my corps experience and thought processes, I see why my mind was jolted the first month of that corps in-residence program in Emporia.  It wasn't the classes or the work program........it was the isolation, immersion, indoctrination, demeaning of individual worth, haughty arrogance of spiritual leadership, groupthink loyalty, stripping of self, use/abuse of followers, anal detail to mowing the grass, etc.

Everything about the Emporia campus screamed "cult conformity".........and my gut instinct was to leave.  At the time, our monthly spending budget was $20.......and we turned over our budget books to be monitored at the end of each month.  Even though we were allowed to go "off-campus" Saturday afternoon........what was there to do with that $5 "extra in your budget" except buy a couple of beers or cigarettes?  The constraints of that monthly budget constricted choice and freedom.......it served as more leverage to the cult.

This was all very foreign to me........I had several thousand dollars in my bank account and a car in the parking lot.

.

 During one of the ROA's back in the early 80s some friends and myself were riding  on one of those tractor pulled trams from the parking lot to the big top area. We were all in our early teens, but I vaguely remember seeing someone from our local fellowship who was a little older...maybe late teens or early 20s...but he had his head shaved and had army fatigues on. We asked him where he had been but he wouldn't give us a straight answer. His personality had changed as well...I remembered him as being somewhat of a practical joker but he was much more reserved and did not want to talk about his recent experience with us. Since I was a rank-and-file follower during my whole involvement with TWI, I'm not familiar with all of TWI's current and past programs. I was just wondering if the Fellow-Laborers program had any military style training?

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"I was just wondering if the Fellow-Laborers program had any military style training? "

Hey, Waysider!  This one's apparently for you.  IIRC, you were the FL survivor here.

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As for lcm, his background has him as a "dumb jock" who was of insufficient skill to make it to the big leagues after college, who also was a Christian in college. From there, he went straight into twi full-time, with no pauses for a normal job or life like any normal adult.  (That's why it was so hypocritical when he and vpw complained about other people who didn't show up for MORE time at twi and work MORE for free than they already did.  Neither had any experience with real jobs and real lives, so didn't realize how unrealistic that was for people who want to keep a real job- and how unrealistic it would be to quit a job every 50 weeks to work for free at twi, then return home and look for a whole new job every year just to satisfy their unrealistic expectations.)

Anyway, despite having a Bachelors, lcm neither understood Psychology nor people.  (Someone falling down and becoming incoherent isn't someone "going gooney-bird", and most laymen could at least give a BIT more accurate descriptions than that.)    Lacking life experience outside college and twi, it would come as no surprise if he never matured past the varsity team in socialization- and it seems to me he did not. (Hey, just remembered, since he played on his college's varsity team, he exceeded vpw's athletics accomplishments ALSO.)  So, where an athlete might have knee-jerk reactions to homosexuals and call them names and criticize them to other athletes, he would do exactly the same- and to twi, since he controlled the microphone there and had captive audiences every time he wanted to just monopolize free time for others. 

Add to that how he was replaced in his marriage that way, and there's plenty to make lcm feel insecure about homosexuality right there. Rather than deal with that, he turned around and "kicked the dog" to make himself feel better.  With continual reminders facing him, he kept lashing out and obsessing over homosexuality.   Other than the above, there's nothing that he HIMSELF ever said or showed that said he was interested in other guys "that way".  In the absence of any reason, it's possible to speculate without cause- but I'm more honest than that and won't do it. (I've seen others who won't stop there, though, although not as posters at the GSC that I know of.) 

I know it's considered "de rigeur" to accuse guys who freak out about homosexuality to all do so solely because they're closet homosexuals or homosexuals in denial, but really, there's other possible reasons they may freak out as well.  I'm not saying anyone's right to freak out, but those freaking out have reasons, whether or not anyone else would consider them GOOD reasons or any justification for freaking out. 

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16 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

I was just wondering if the Fellow-Laborers program had any military style training?

We ran a mile every morning at 5:30, ate communal meals, followed a ridged schedule and were expected to follow the orders of leadership without questioning. One might say that it had military undertones, but there was no military training per se. Also, by the 980's, the program had been disbanded. I think the last group graduated in 1978 or 9.

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5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I know it's considered "de rigeur" to accuse guys who freak out about homosexuality to all do so solely because they're closet homosexuals or homosexuals in denial, but really, there's other possible reasons they may freak out as well.  I'm not saying anyone's right to freak out, but those freaking out have reasons, whether or not anyone else would consider them GOOD reasons or any justification for freaking out. 

Of course, I've heard that too. I tend to think that some of us who grew up in various cultures and subcultures that were intolerant to homosexual individuals may not be closet gays themselves... but those of us who did live through macho cultures and religious cultures like twi have had the opportunity to grow out of that intolerance. I might be reasonable to figure that those who have left those intolerant cultures but remain intolerant themselves MIGHT have some of those tendencies.

Some time in the 1990s, I started recognizing the humanity in persons who were attracted to persons of the same sex. Now I have plenty of gay friends.

 

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10 hours ago, WordWolf said:

As for lcm, his background has him as a "dumb jock" who was of insufficient skill to make it to the big leagues after college, who also was a Christian in college. From there, he went straight into twi full-time, with no pauses for a normal job or life like any normal adult.  (That's why it was so hypocritical when he and vpw complained about other people who didn't show up for MORE time at twi and work MORE for free than they already did.  Neither had any experience with real jobs and real lives, so didn't realize how unrealistic that was for people who want to keep a real job- and how unrealistic it would be to quit a job every 50 weeks to work for free at twi, then return home and look for a whole new job every year just to satisfy their unrealistic expectations.)

Anyway, despite having a Bachelors, lcm neither understood Psychology nor people.  (Someone falling down and becoming incoherent isn't someone "going gooney-bird", and most laymen could at least give a BIT more accurate descriptions than that.)    Lacking life experience outside college and twi, it would come as no surprise if he never matured past the varsity team in socialization- and it seems to me he did not. (Hey, just remembered, since he played on his college's varsity team, he exceeded vpw's athletics accomplishments ALSO.)  So, where an athlete might have knee-jerk reactions to homosexuals and call them names and criticize them to other athletes, he would do exactly the same- and to twi, since he controlled the microphone there and had captive audiences every time he wanted to just monopolize free time for others. 

Add to that how he was replaced in his marriage that way, and there's plenty to make lcm feel insecure about homosexuality right there. Rather than deal with that, he turned around and "kicked the dog" to make himself feel better.  With continual reminders facing him, he kept lashing out and obsessing over homosexuality.   Other than the above, there's nothing that he HIMSELF ever said or showed that said he was interested in other guys "that way".  In the absence of any reason, it's possible to speculate without cause- but I'm more honest than that and won't do it. (I've seen others who won't stop there, though, although not as posters at the GSC that I know of.) 

I know it's considered "de rigeur" to accuse guys who freak out about homosexuality to all do so solely because they're closet homosexuals or homosexuals in denial, but really, there's other possible reasons they may freak out as well.  I'm not saying anyone's right to freak out, but those freaking out have reasons, whether or not anyone else would consider them GOOD reasons or any justification for freaking out. 

I tend to agree with all you’ve said...and for whatever reason some jocks have a knee-jerk reaction, indicates to me there may be some insecurity involved -if anything just to preserve the macho image.

 

Just to elaborate on my previous post - perhaps I should have developed my thoughts better - sorry that I did not fine tune it - I was thinking lcm’s “freak out” was more than the typical jock-knee-jerk reaction...

 

having mentioned his oppressive “father in the word” - wierwille - I was wondering about lcm becoming aware of and then “making peace with” wierwille’s predatory impulses...maybe lcm’s homophobic bandwagon helped to assuage any bad feelings he had from following in his “father’s footsteps “ as well as the insecuritiy from situations like his wife “leaving” him for another woman - so maybe it’s along the same lines as you said he “kicked the dog to feel better”.

 

also the end of the quote from Scientic article did caution there are many reasons for anti-gay sentiments...I was wondering more along the lines of what was it about wierwille’s influence that got lcm to be so aggressive on it; who knows...maybe lcm used it as a diversionary tactic to get any attention off his own behavior...not sure on any of this - just thinking out loud...was I too loud? :biglaugh:

Edited by T-Bone

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7 hours ago, WordWolf said:

So, where an athlete might have knee-jerk reactions to homosexuals and call them names and criticize them to other athletes, he would do exactly the same

 

7 hours ago, WordWolf said:

there's other possible reasons they may freak out as well

When I was in 7th grade, I beat up a classmate that was blatantly gay.  My reasoning: it repulsed me.  But I was 12 years old.  I gradually toned it down to just ridiculing them, but as I grew up so did my understanding of people, and my end to being a bully.  Before even graduating high school I never even hinted my dislike of their tendencies; I understood we all had flaws.

Like Rocky said, we are all human.

I guess some people just never grow up in certain areas.

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7 hours ago, Rocky said:

(snip)
Some time in the 1990s, I started recognizing the humanity in persons who were attracted to persons of the same sex. Now I have plenty of gay friends. (snip)

 

Some of my best friends are humans.  Generally, people who spend all their time talking about one topic (regardless of the topic)  tend not to make that list.

 

"Like Rocky said, we are all human.

I guess some people just never grow up in certain areas."

 

You had other reasons at the time, which illustrates my point.   You've also grown up and apparently don't need to yell or hit when disagreeing with someone or disliking someone or something.   That's actually an un-twi thing to do.

It's been said before (here)  that people in twi tend to get frozen in their development while in twi. So, if they joined twi at age 18, they remain as mature as an 18 year old until sometime after they leave twi, and so on.  People who joined later looked more mature- but only because they were frozen at a more mature age. lcm got in during college, and remained stuck as an immature jock for his entire twi experience- and beyond, if evidence is representative. Perhaps NOW he's grown beyond it. I hope so.  I'd hope he could have at least a few years as an adult, relatively free of twi, than spend all of it as its thrall, down to his final hours.

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On 6/15/2018 at 12:22 PM, WordWolf said:

Some of my best friends are humans.  Generally, people who spend all their time talking about one topic (regardless of the topic)  tend not to make that list.

 

"Like Rocky said, we are all human.

I guess some people just never grow up in certain areas."

 

You had other reasons at the time, which illustrates my point.   You've also grown up and apparently don't need to yell or hit when disagreeing with someone or disliking someone or something.   That's actually an un-twi thing to do.

It's been said before (here)  that people in twi tend to get frozen in their development while in twi. So, if they joined twi at age 18, they remain as mature as an 18 year old until sometime after they leave twi, and so on.  People who joined later looked more mature- but only because they were frozen at a more mature age. lcm got in during college, and remained stuck as an immature jock for his entire twi experience- and beyond, if evidence is representative. Perhaps NOW he's grown beyond it. I hope so.  I'd hope he could have at least a few years as an adult, relatively free of twi, than spend all of it as its thrall, down to his final hours.

Fascinating points in your post, thanks WordWolf !

Got me thinking about cognitive development... did a little search online and found this:

Cognitive development refers to the development of the ability to think and reason.

Children (typically 6 to 12 years old) develop the ability to think in concrete ways (concrete operations), such as how to combine (addition), separate (subtract or divide), order (alphabetize and sort), and transform (5 pennies = 1 nickel) objects and actions. These processes are called concrete because they are performed in the presence of the objects and events being thought about.

Adolescence marks the beginning development of more complex thinking processes (also called formal logical operations) including abstract thinking (thinking about possibilities), the ability to reason from known principles (form own new ideas or questions), the ability to consider many points of view according to varying criteria (compare or debate ideas or opinions), and the ability to consider the process of thinking.

From Article on cognitive development

== == ==

I think there’s something to your idea of folks being “frozen” in their development while in TWI. Considering TWI’s methods of deception,indoctrination, tyrannical control and such I tend to think all that can frustrate and sabotage one’s development of logical thinking and formulating new ideas or questions...not to mention the strong public opinion (i.e. group-think) that it was NOT cool to consider other points of view based on various criteria that differed from wierwille’s.

In my humble opinion, once a person leaves TWI they may have a lot of catching up to do in terms of cognitive development...yeah - I’m still working on that myself. 

Peace y’all

 

Edited by T-Bone
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