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Nothing New Under the Sun: The first sin of mankind

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Hey, y'all.  Thinking about something; wondering if anyone has already looked into this.

Starting from the premise that VPW and LCM were not original thinkers, but rather borrowed from the work of others, I have been thinking about how that factors into The Way's Genesis 3 teaching.  I think this has been swept on the rug in the present teaching, but there has also never been a retraction.  I am speaking of the teaching from The Way of Abundance and Power which interpreted the Genesis 3 story of Eve and the Serpent to have been Eve having had a lesbian experience with the serpent who had taken on the form of a woman.  Craig supported this by pointing to homophones in the text which he said had a strong sexual connotation and were a kind of double entendre.  The "ah-ha" moment was when he revealed a panel from the Sistine Chapel which portrayed the serpent has having the torso of a woman.  

I have always thought this explanation was pretty wonky and a big leap, BUT... I was just looking at some art work this week which had the them of gay couples in the garden with a serpent, and I remembered the similar renaissance examples.  This got me to thinking that as crazy as that teaching seemed to me, it must have some precedent somewhere, because Craig, like VPW before him, was unoriginal.

Anyone know where the Craigers got this teaching?

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26 minutes ago, shortfuse said:

Anyone know where the Craigers got this teaching?

I wasn't at HQ, but my understanding was that because Craig was extremely homophobic, he may have determined that himself, as a way of fending off potential homosexuals from entering the ranks - let it be known right up front TWI doesn't accept that stuff.  As many resources as I have looked at over the years, I have never seen even a hint of this interpretation of Gen 3 anywhere.

And what we on the field were told as to why it was removed from the next version of the class was that it was too much for new people to handle.  But I suspect it was because Rosie and her girlfriend didn't want it there.

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There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III.  At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money."

"Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money."  (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction."

lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere.  So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality."  "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality."  "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality."  "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality."

I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key.

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11 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III.  At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money."

"Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money."  (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction."

lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere.  So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality."  "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality."  "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality."  "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality."

I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key.

Yeah, I suppose you are right.  I remember him saying how he put it together because VPW thought it was masturbation.  So that got him to sexuality.  What is sexually immoral?  (Adultery? no, that can't be right.) Homosexuality!

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16 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III.  At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money."

"Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money."  (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction."

lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere.  So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality."  "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality."  "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality."  "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality."

I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key.

 

1 hour ago, Taxidev said:

But I suspect it was because Rosie and her girlfriend didn't want it there.

Perhaps Loy was freaking out because, right under his nose, his wife and his chief rival for the power of the purse in TWI were doing the nasty. The connection is plausible.

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5 hours ago, Rocky said:

 

Perhaps Loy was freaking out because, right under his nose, his wife and his chief rival for the power of the purse in TWI were doing the nasty. The connection is plausible.

Gotta say.

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12 hours ago, WordWolf said:

There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III.  At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money."

"Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money."  (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction."

lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere.  So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality."  "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality."  "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality."  "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality."

I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key.

your post inspired a little plagiarism...here's a remix of the lyrics from Gilligan's Isle...(excuse the messed up meter - this was a rush job :rolleyes:)

Homophobe’s Aisle

Remember back when stringing chairs

Meant keeping the aisle straight

If this cult handed out free libidos

They would be full of hate

First prez was a flimflam preying man

Successor wore a tutu

Kind of odd for a homophobe

When criticizing you

Criticizing you

 

The preaching started getting tough

The Shepherd’s pies were boss

It was out of fear for this clueless crew

guys’ legs would never cross

guys’ legs would never cross

 

homo-purge throughout the aisles of Rock of Ages ‘95

with Doofus Brow

being a dick,

Top homophobe and hypocrite

The MVP athlete of devil spirits

here on Homophobe’s Aisle

Edited by T-Bone
“Accuracy”

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WordWolf:

"

There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III.  At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money."

"Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money."  (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction."

lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere.  So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality."  "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality."  "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality."  "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality."

I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key."

 

 

shortfuse:

"Yeah, I suppose you are right.  I remember him saying how he put it together because VPW thought it was masturbation.  So that got him to sexuality.  What is sexually immoral?  (Adultery? no, that can't be right.) Homosexuality! "

 

Taxidev:

"I wasn't at HQ, but my understanding was that because Craig was extremely homophobic, he may have determined that himself, as a way of fending off potential homosexuals from entering the ranks - let it be known right up front TWI doesn't accept that stuff.  As many resources as I have looked at over the years, I have never seen even a hint of this interpretation of Gen 3 anywhere.

And what we on the field were told as to why it was removed from the next version of the class was that it was too much for new people to handle.  But I suspect it was because Rosie and her girlfriend didn't want it there."

 

 

Rocky:

"Perhaps Loy was freaking out because, right under his nose, his wife and his chief rival for the power of the purse in TWI were doing the nasty. The connection is plausible. "

 

I think we're all saying the same thing from different directions. I think that why lcm BECAME so obsessed with homosexuality was only secondarily the stereotypical "jock" stuff and primarily because it was causing him to be benched for other women (to continue the sports metaphor.)  Besides, lcm didn't really play sports around twi like a life-long jock.  People who played sports there reported that he was not one of the guys, and when he DID play, he had to be in charge (vpw forbid his side lose a game, too...)   So, the more PERSONAL reason it bothered him...

 

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I was there.  Most of you here - have only secondhand knowledge.  Sky and OldSkool probably have first hand knowledge from Corps hookups.

I had to listen to LCM's rants, live and in all spittle: front row seat, in fact.  He spent months of Corps Nights ranting on about homos, 2 or 3 hour rants using foul language and foul descriptions of the alleged perverted activities these men did.  Slandering people (men) who might or might not have been "guilty" of anything; these people just vanished from HQ and of course nobody had the opportunity to talk to them (one, I know, certainly had no such inclinations [blushes]).  "Sniffing them out."  "Spiritual suspicion."  The first couple of rant-sessions, I thought, "There's obviously a problem here."  But as the weeks turned into months, I wondered at his obsession with this.  ("Methinks he doth protest too much.").  There got to be some overspill into Sunday Night Service tapes.  I wondered if he himself had a problem with homosexuality - whether he was a closet homosexual.  I wondered at his sanity - but then, I was a newbie in-rez Corpswoman, and he was the spiritual leader; he knew better.  In all of his rants, though, it was only males he ranted about - never about women with women.

I find that interesting, sort of, now, knowing what I do. 

He was having it away with whatever women (other men's wives, single women, any women) for shorter or longer periods.  I personally have talked with one woman who was his "squeeze" for a while; she told me in detail the sad tale of the decline of her marriage.  And of LCM's role in that breakdown, his insidious comments about her cuckold husband.

His wife was having it away with another woman, RFR, who herself "had him by the b---s," though only figuratively.  (Perhaps this is where the serpent/lesbian idea crept in? It was a jibe against RFR.) 

But I only recall him ranting about females almost in passing.  His obsession was men-with-men.

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I cannot begin to tell you how horrifying it was, to learn about the sexual misdeeds at HQ and top leadership.  All the years since they'd M&A'd me, all the mental anguish they'd caused me, and I'd been so sure they were right, whiter than white, simply wouldn't stand for adultery, child molestation and other shenanigans.  There were a lot of allegations about the time I found out, about the RC church and its abuse of children.  Smugly, I thought, "TWI would never behave like that!"  No.  They didn't.  They behaved worse.

I suppose there remains within me a residual anger at TWI and its LYING, FRAUD, MANIPULATION, ABUSE, that I could poke into life, but I prefer to use that residual anger to understand and help others who have been abused by those they trusted.

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Well said Twinky ! How grating it would be to dwell on their hypocrisy of balling people out whilst doing the dishonourable deeds themselves. Even in our little country, it's putrid double standards pervaded what started out as a warm, cozy fellowship of people that genuinely cared about each other. Talk about sowing the seeds of deception, these guys were sowing their seed like rampant animal herd leaders. This is why R&R will fail, some of the perpetrators running it still without repentance, nay, from what I have heard, excusing what they have done.

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I think of Medusa with her head of snakes as another example of women being associated with snakes in mythology.  She turned men to stone.

 

LCM's constant blame-shifting was just following in Adam's footsteps.

 

 

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I'm sure if you explained to LCM that to fight Medusa you have to look in the mirror . . . 

. . . he'd see it as a trick of the Adversary to get him to walk backwards . . .

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Well, In the days Twinky mentioned, especially around 93 and 94, many in rez corps were kicked out for having homosexual fantasies-men and women alike.they would get the bum's rush and disappear while everyone else was doing different things... 

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HiAJust thinking about the imagery of snakes and women in mythology and folklore... what came to mind is something that I learned from studying the seven deadly sins, specifically the sin of lust. Often in medieval art lust is depicted as a woman with serpents biting her nipples. It's an interesting depiction of the sin of lust - specifically because it depicts the object of the lust, not the one who is lusting (the artist - generally a male producing art for the male gaze.)

 

 serpents are commonly used as a phallic symbol.. when a woman is used to depict the sin of lust by having sexual relations with a serpent, it would seem to indicate the cardinal sin of lust as being the original sin, rather than a "sin" of homosexuality.

Lust treats other humans as things to be used rather than as a fully conscious spiritual being worthy of dignity.

TWI's full of lust.

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On 6/10/2018 at 11:44 PM, Rocky said:

 

Perhaps Loy was freaking out because, right under his nose, his wife and his chief rival for the power of the purse in TWI were doing the nasty. The connection is plausible.

Rocky, I think you are right.  I think Craig may have been upset, that he was losing his wife-to another woman. 

 

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In remembering the PFAL class, I do not remember VPW teaching about homosexuality as the first sin. Instead I remember VPW teaching that the first sin was masturbation. Yes, mixing masturbation with the original sin also relates to sexuality. However, this shows NO sense and was perhaps his most errant teaching. As I recall Wierwille copied his best teachings from other teachers, while coming up with his worst teachings from his own thoughts.  Saying that the hated serpent of Genesis relates to having sex with this monster is Crazy. Here is information on the original sin of mankind. 

Satan, who is a spiritual entity, is very good at deception and promoting myths of falsity. The first and primary example of this is seen in Genesis chapter 3:1-6.  Here Satan the spiritual being is symbolically referred to as a serpent, which is a crawling reptile or snake. In Genesis 2:16-17 after creating the world including agriculture, animals and mankind God told Adam that he was “free to eat from any tree in the garden”. However, “you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die”. This commandment by God was given as a test to Adam of his obedience to God the creator with proof that Adam was dependent of or needing God the creator.  

 Later in Genesis 3:4 the serpent says to the newly created woman called Eve that you won’t die when you do something that God said not to do. The woman did not agree with the serpent at first. However, Satan was and is a master of deception and got her to ignore the Word of God, while instead following what the serpent said to do. Then Eve talked Adam into following the same deception. As a result as worded in Genesis 3:17-19 we have some pain in life today that physically ends with decay and deterioration or as the bible says humanity physically returning to dust. Figurative language is used, but a simple explanation of humanity is no eternal life for our physical bodies. Instead working to live and survive with the eventual death of our physical bodies which biblically is seen as being buried in “the grave”.

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20 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

no eternal life for our physical bodies.

What if that were never a part of God's original design or intent? (IMO, it wasn't.)
How would (or does) that change your view of what the original sin might have been?

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Maybe the imagery being discussed was simply a common theme in the art work of that particular time in history. Just a thought.

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https://www.popsci.com/humans-are-better-noticing-snakes-we-are-seeing-spiders#page-2

http://www.cracked.com/article_19986_the-5-weirdest-sixth-senses-humans-have-without-knowing-it.html

(see #3, Ovulating women can sense snakes and gays)

Snakes shaped human evolution.  So they show up symbolically in mythology

Edited by Bolshevik
fix links

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3 hours ago, TLC said:

What if that were never a part of God's original design or intent? (IMO, it wasn't.)
How would (or does) that change your view of what the original sin might have been?

To answer your question please read and learn from 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Perhaps I only mentioned the first part of this which is no eternal life for our physical bodies. Next is being raised with a spiritual body.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

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10 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

To answer your question please read and learn from 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

Given that's not an answer to (and doesn't even come close to addressing) my question, evidently you've never considered the possibility that I asked... and either don't have (and can't think of) an answer, or don't comprehend the question.

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1 hour ago, TLC said:

Given that's not an answer to (and doesn't even come close to addressing) my question, evidently you've never considered the possibility that I asked... and either don't have (and can't think of) an answer, or don't comprehend the question.

in addressing the subject of the original poster here. The original sin was not masturbation or homosexuality. Do you believe it was one of these two? From Genesis it is not clear as to what it specifically was. Because it is not clear as to the specifics. Therefore after reading Genesis 2:16-17 my general conclusion is the following.  

In Genesis 2:16-17 after creating the world including agriculture, animals and mankind God told Adam that he was “free to eat from any tree in the garden”. However, “you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die”. This commandment by God was given as a test to Adam of his obedience to God the creator with proof that Adam was dependent of or needing God the creator.

In addition, I agree with Waysider and Bolshevik and their posts here.  Painting the spiritual devil as a serpent is symbolic and not literal. Satan is a spiritual being first created as an angel but then this angel turned bad. Instead of being service oriented, this spiritual being is greedy and wants power and authority instead of being service oriented to mankind.  

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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Whatever the detail, the crime was High Treason- the betrayal of the legitimate monarch for an enemy of the state.  We can discuss the details and agree or disagree but that's not the big picture.

 

I'm surprised how people don't get symbolic language. All modern languages do it. We do it with English all the time.  We call people a snake, a snake-in-the-grass, a serpent, the old sidewinder,  (etc), a rat, a stool pigeon. a fox, a slippery eel,  a pig, a hog,  a dog, a jack@$$, etc.  People understand what we mean with no further explanation.  

When Bloom County (comic strip) had a story on "Senator Bedfellow" in their newspaper, the article began :"Leaving a trail of slime wherever.." and I'm sure nobody really thought he was dripping slime.  Usually, we comment when someone (like a child) doesn't understand it.  Elroy Jetson: "That doesn't look like a crab's hand. Let's see you pinch pennies with it. My Dad says you do that all the time!"        Robot maid:"Miguel says you like to suck the blood of widows and orphans. We don't have any in the fridge. May I offer you some coffee?"

So, we have someone who's said to "slither", to be an untrustworthy "snake-in-the-grass",  and they're going to sneak around, despised.  They're called a "serpent." Well, yeah, what else do you call them?   No, we don't expect them to have scales, etc.

 

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On 6/11/2018 at 2:43 PM, Twinky said:

I was there.  Most of you here - have only secondhand knowledge.  Sky and OldSkool probably have first hand knowledge from Corps hookups.

I had to listen to LCM's rants, live and in all spittle: front row seat, in fact.  He spent months of Corps Nights ranting on about homos, 2 or 3 hour rants using foul language and foul descriptions of the alleged perverted activities these men did.  Slandering people (men) who might or might not have been "guilty" of anything; these people just vanished from HQ and of course nobody had the opportunity to talk to them (one, I know, certainly had no such inclinations [blushes]).  "Sniffing them out."  "Spiritual suspicion."  The first couple of rant-sessions, I thought, "There's obviously a problem here."  But as the weeks turned into months, I wondered at his obsession with this.  ("Methinks he doth protest too much.").  There got to be some overspill into Sunday Night Service tapes.  I wondered if he himself had a problem with homosexuality - whether he was a closet homosexual.  I wondered at his sanity - but then, I was a newbie in-rez Corpswoman, and he was the spiritual leader; he knew better.  In all of his rants, though, it was only males he ranted about - never about women with women.

I find that interesting, sort of, now, knowing what I do. 

He was having it away with whatever women (other men's wives, single women, any women) for shorter or longer periods.  I personally have talked with one woman who was his "squeeze" for a while; she told me in detail the sad tale of the decline of her marriage.  And of LCM's role in that breakdown, his insidious comments about her cuckold husband.

His wife was having it away with another woman, RFR, who herself "had him by the b---s," though only figuratively.  (Perhaps this is where the serpent/lesbian idea crept in? It was a jibe against RFR.) 

But I only recall him ranting about females almost in passing.  His obsession was men-with-men.

One of the GSC documents was a letter lcm sent around, with a hateful screed against homosexuals. He made a separate paragraph just to scream at the women.

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