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Ephesians 4:14 and Wierwille's psychological deception

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From the NIV
 

 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.


Now, we have documented in tremendous depth and detail in this forum how Wierwille did not walk in or speak the truth in love. He was largely in it for his own pecuniary gain. But he also taught this particular passage, clearly emphasizing that HE was the one who could teach people how to not be tossed about with every wind of doctrine... YET...

it appears he was likely the biggest stumbling block to keep people from maturing spiritually. Uncanny, really.

Did Wierwille's teaching promote unity in the Body of Christ? Or did he revel in his divisiveness?

You tell me.... please.

 

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1 hour ago, Rocky said:


Now, we have documented in tremendous depth and detail in this forum how Wierwille did not walk in or speak the truth in love. He was largely in it for his own pecuniary gain. But he also taught this particular passage, clearly emphasizing that HE was the one who could teach people how to not be tossed about with every wind of doctrine... YET...

it appears he was likely the biggest stumbling block to keep people from maturing spiritually. Uncanny, really.

Did Wierwille's teaching promote unity in the Body of Christ? Or did he revel in his divisiveness?

You tell me.... please.

 

Hey, Rocky...........imho, neither of the two.

Wierwille relished in his arrogance of power and control.  Embodying an array of narcissistic pathologies, he envisioned his cult organization as the exclamation point in this contorted dispensational-theology, a perverted version of lustful "grace."  And, by bringing "his keedz" to the wierwille farmstead, whatever mixture of childhood demons that haunted him........were foisted upon the rest of us in this hall-of-mirrors of his paternal german wierwille lineage.

I seriously doubt that few will ever uncover the reasons why wierwille roamed the grounds at night......

 

That's my $.02

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So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 

to equip his people His = Christ's people

for works of service, Not works of servitude

so that the body of Christ may be built up  The Body of Christ - not the coffers of any organisation (TWI or other)

until we all reach unity in the faith That is, we're all unified in looking towards and trusting him, the Head, the Lord, Christ - which is not the same as lockstep likemindedness

and in the knowledge of the Son of God Knowledge of the Son, the One, the Redeemer, the Ultimate Teacher

and become mature, Yet remaining childlike in our wonder and love for Christ

attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.  Which fullness can only be understood by knowing, valuing and appreciating how he works in other and all parts of "his body" - that is, within the fullness of the Christian church

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.

 

I have to say that I met some awesome people in TWI (mostly at lower levels) and some significantly awesome people who are real movers and shakers in the gentlest and kindest way at helping others, patient, serving the poor and disadvantaged, "coming alongside," generous in heart and time and with money, teaching by example, and modelling a life that is authentic and truly mirrors the love of Christ for everyone.  They are from many different walks of life, and they are often very different from each other in personality - except for an indefinable warmth and "drawing" effect.

I'd say, these are people equipped for service, mature, and reaching to the fullness of Christ.

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26 minutes ago, skyrider said:

Hey, Rocky...........imho, neither of the two.

Wierwille relished in his arrogance of power and control.  Embodying an array of narcissistic pathologies, he envisioned his cult organization as the exclamation point in this contorted dispensational-theology, a perverted version of lustful "grace."  And, by bringing "his keedz" to the wierwille farmstead, whatever mixture of childhood demons that haunted him........were foisted upon the rest of us in this hall-of-mirrors of his paternal german wierwille lineage.

I seriously doubt that few will ever uncover the reasons why wierwille roamed the grounds at night......

 

That's my $.02

Worth more than $.02 to me. Thanks.

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27 minutes ago, Twinky said:

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 

to equip his people His = Christ's people

for works of service, Not works of servitude

so that the body of Christ may be built up  The Body of Christ - not the coffers of any organisation (TWI or other)

until we all reach unity in the faith That is, we're all unified in looking towards and trusting him, the Head, the Lord, Christ - which is not the same as lockstep likemindedness

and in the knowledge of the Son of God Knowledge of the Son, the One, the Redeemer, the Ultimate Teacher

and become mature, Yet remaining childlike in our wonder and love for Christ

attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.  Which fullness can only be understood by knowing, valuing and appreciating how he works in other and all parts of "his body" - that is, within the fullness of the Christian church

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.

 

I have to say that I met some awesome people in TWI (mostly at lower levels) and some significantly awesome people who are real movers and shakers in the gentlest and kindest way at helping others, patient, serving the poor and disadvantaged, "coming alongside," generous in heart and time and with money, teaching by example, and modelling a life that is authentic and truly mirrors the love of Christ for everyone.  They are from many different walks of life, and they are often very different from each other in personality - except for an indefinable warmth and "drawing" effect.

I'd say, these are people equipped for service, mature, and reaching to the fullness of Christ.


I appreciate your reflection on and analysis of that scripture. Pretty straightforward, eh?
 

 

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To say that wierwille promoted unity in the body of Christ is like saying cancer improves your health.

Cancer is a disease caused by the uncontrolled division of abnormal cells in a part of the body...On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the worst case) i think wierwille was abnormal dialed up to 11 ...yeah abnormal and out of control...committing unconscionable acts - he did not answer to anyone in heaven or on earth...his unchecked ego formulating cancer-like theology and practices that always tended to distinguish him apart from other churches and ministries, and afforded him immense control over the lives of others - to exploit ...to destroy... if there was a deliberate battle plan to attack the body of Christ - I would call his strategy divide and conquer.

...he plagiarized from other Christians to cobble together a skewed doctrine and practice with a subliminal message that no one else out there was really rightly dividing “the word” like him; amping up the divisiveness he’d ensnare followers with a polarizing ploy like shoving JCING down your throat so you look at any Trinitarian like they’ve got 3 heads; pushing this thing called “the household of god” like it was special and better than being just in the body of Christ... and as if that wasn’t enough he’d often label other churches / ministers as off “the word”, deceived , spiritually blinded, possessed or wrong seed - take your pick there’s lots of bad mojo to choose from.

 

...Among other things one of wierwille’s big problems was his high level of absenteeism from the lordship of Christ - probably why he taught that “the word” takes the place of the absent Christ - so there’s no lordship of Jesus Christ - only whatever wierwille taught “the word” says on a particular topic so he could lord it over others...sounds to me like a Colossians 2:19 problem : ... not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

Edited by T-Bone
Added a few tidbits

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I believe he promoted an 'us versus them' ( mainstream Christianity )mindset, deliberately causing division in the body, giving cause for 'us' to never leave twi because, well, where else would we go ?!

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1 hour ago, Allan said:

I believe he promoted an 'us versus them' ( mainstream Christianity )mindset, deliberately causing division in the body, giving cause for 'us' to never leave twi because, well, where else would we go ?!

He did indeed.

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6 hours ago, Rocky said:


Did Wierwille's teaching promote unity in the Body of Christ? Or did he revel in his divisiveness?
 

 

Regarding wierwille's psychological deception.............all was going well, UNTIL wierwille got "out over his skis."

He added a lot of Jesus and Christ scriptures in the 60's and early 70's.........then more cult rhetoric by 1978.

  • We were never supposed to know about his deception....
  • He never thought or imagined that we'd regroup, discuss and expose twi's dark underbelly.....
  • People grow up........and are emboldened to speak out in articles, books, and websites.....
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Thanks, Rocky.  And the flip side of what I said earlier is exactly what T-Bone said a couple of posts later.

As unwitting and unwilling participants in furthering the division of the Body, by promoting VPW's doctrine of division, I think it befits us escapees to do what we can now to repair the damage and to pay particular attention to knitting that Body back together - as Eph 4:15-16 continues:

 

:15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head - Christ.

:16 From Him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, I'm thinking that might mean every Christian, together with apostles, prophets, etc and bishops and deacons as appointed by Him (not necessarily by some church hierarchy) (and certainly not appointed by themselves)

promotes the growth of the body for building itself in love   Growth!  Building together!  I'm taking that as individual growth - and the growth in numbers of those participating in the Body (ie, outreach)

by the proper working of each individual part. Again, I'm thinking that must mean every Christian, fully functioning and moving to maturity.

 

When you think about it, the policy of "mark and avoid" is only mentioned in passing - what, once? twice? - in the NT.  How many more times are there references to working together, likemindedness in furthering the gospel, being knit together, unity of the spirit, and such like, together with descriptions of, and named people who are modelling, just that behaviour?

I utterly reject any kind of division as promoted by Weirwille or any other so-called Christian leader.

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I think this might be an appropriate place to add a small anecdote about the Body working together.

A friend and I were on holiday, in France.  Friend was driving.  A very minor accident occurred; friend was reversing slowly round a corner because we'd missed our turning; a Frenchwoman was coming forward round the same corner.  It was "our fault."  Ms French was understandably upset and berated us vigorously.  The damage was slight: only a broken trim round her headlight, nothing to our vehicle.  We didn't know what to do, couldn't speak adequate French, didn't know if it had to be reported to a gendarme, could imagine horrible consequences.  It was getting very stressful.  There seemed no-one in sight.

Suddenly two young women arrived, quickly sized up the situation.  One helped Ms French phone the Lancia dealer and the other calmed everyone down and explained in good English what was happening.  It turned out that she had been a missionary in London for a couple of years.  Amazing!  It was established that the part would cost about 17 or 18 euros.  Ms French was offered 40 euros (to compensate for her trouble).  Despite her noisy outrage, she refused to accept that much, even finding the English to say, "Too much;" she accepted 20 euros.  And off she went, quite happy.  We thanked the young women, looked back at our car - looked round for the women again, and they'd vanished.

Question: were they ministering angels?  Probably not, though they do go around in pairs.

I think they were real live, human beings, part of the Body, that the Lord himself had sent to help us in that situation.  We found a small chapel and offered prayers of thanks.

The kicker is: they were Jehovah's Witnesses - part of a sect (some say cult) that many would deny are in fact Christian.

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2 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Regarding wierwille's psychological deception.............all was going well, UNTIL wierwille got "out over his skis."

He added a lot of Jesus and Christ scriptures in the 60's and early 70's.........then more cult rhetoric by 1978.

  • We were never supposed to know about his deception....
  • He never thought or imagined that we'd regroup, discuss and expose twi's dark underbelly.....
  • People grow up........and are emboldened to speak out in articles, books, and websites.....

BAM! That's it. He apparently wasn't counting on that. He wasn't the only one. I remember JALvis saying something a couple of years ago either to me or someone roughly the same age. He was addressing the situation as if we (those at whom he was speaking) were still twentysomethings. It definitely got my attention.

Edited by Rocky

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Have any of you ever read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl?

I'm friends with a guy that was a young teacher in the high school I graduated from (46 years ago)... he's not so young anymore and neither am I. He assigned students in his English classes to read that book and write an essay about it.

Yesterday, he posted on FB about that practice. It was a timely reminder of a classic. So, I got it from my local library today and started reading it.

It occurs to me that the book may be a good filter/lens through which to evaluate our experience in twi and each our own lives in the ensuing decades.

To me, it fits well with the subject of this thread.

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D@nm son, that's some Ephesians up in here!!!!    :dance:  Rocky, Twinky, the rest of the spotters augmenting ideas.    :dance:  Hit me like an excellent cup of coffee, refreshing!!!!!!  I do think that feel of the one body unity is as you guys are digging it out as opposed to some lock-step Gestapo unity as attempted to being lived by the Way.

Oh, and regarding the one body, Wierwille was a pimple on Christ's @$$, barely worthy of discussion in comparison to

Ephesians

concepts.

But glad we are, because it's an awesome discussion.

 

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On 7/30/2018 at 9:13 PM, Twinky said:

The kicker is: they were Jehovah's Witnesses - part of a sect (some say cult) that many would deny are in fact Christian.

I've had quite a bit of interactions with Jehovahs, and yes, they are most definitely Christians.  However, it also is a cult, much like TWI.  The major flaw with them is that they believe the return has already happened, and that only 144,000 are saved, the rest of us must go through the tribulation.  Apparently, they didn't read the next 3 or 4 verses in Revelation where it talks about the believers that are as the sands in multitude.  Oh, well.

My personal experience with some members has only been positive, some of the most loving Christians I've met - mind you, I'm only comparing with RC and TWI - and they have all had great integrity.  I have only enjoyed speaking with them.  So it doesn't surprise me what they did for you.

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On 7/30/2018 at 6:07 PM, Allan said:

I believe he promoted an 'us versus them' ( mainstream Christianity )mindset, deliberately causing division in the body, giving cause for 'us' to never leave twi because, well, where else would we go ?!

Yes, after decades of being in the Way, it was so important that we finally realized God is at work outside of "the ministry" and was much bigger than and cannot be contained in the little box the Way put Him in. You would think it was obvious, but it actually was a conclusion we had to come to before we could even consider leaving.

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Speaking of Viktor Frankl ...  I recently returned from paying my respects at Auschwitz and Birkenau, which is in Poland. All day we walked through the former physical location of hell on earth.

Being there, I felt an even deeper shame that I ever considered Wierwille "the man of God." He not only denied the Holocaust but sold the book, The Myth of the Six Million.

When I'm ready, I'll be writing about this on my own website.

From the book's description on Amazon, "Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl's memoir has riveted generations of readers with its descriptions of life in Nazi death camps and its lessons for spiritual survival. Between 1942 and 1945 Frankl labored in four different camps, including Auschwitz, while his parents, brother, and pregnant wife perished. Based on his own experience and the experiences of others he treated later in his practice, Frankl argues that we cannot avoid suffering but we can choose how to cope with it, find meaning in it, and move forward with renewed purpose. Frankl's theory-known as logotherapy, from the Greek word logos ("meaning")-holds that our primary drive in life is not pleasure, as Freud maintained, but the discovery and pursuit of what we personally find meaningful."


 

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3 hours ago, penworks said:

Speaking of Viktor Frankl ...  I recently returned from paying my respects at Auschwitz and Birkenau, which is in Poland. All day we walked through the former physical location of hell on earth.

Being there, I felt an even deeper shame that I ever considered Wierwille "the man of God." He not only denied the Holocaust but sold the book, The Myth of the Six Million.

When I'm ready, I'll be writing about this on my own website.

From the book's description on Amazon, "Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl's memoir has riveted generations of readers with its descriptions of life in Nazi death camps and its lessons for spiritual survival. Between 1942 and 1945 Frankl labored in four different camps, including Auschwitz, while his parents, brother, and pregnant wife perished. Based on his own experience and the experiences of others he treated later in his practice, Frankl argues that we cannot avoid suffering but we can choose how to cope with it, find meaning in it, and move forward with renewed purpose. Frankl's theory-known as logotherapy, from the Greek word logos ("meaning")-holds that our primary drive in life is not pleasure, as Freud maintained, but the discovery and pursuit of what we personally find meaningful."


 

Stephen Covey also cites Frankl's magnum opus in the Seven Habits of Highly Successful People, making the very point that you have highlighted in bold.

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In the 1980s as I was leaving the Way International, I wrote an article titled, THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST - Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man. Below is one of the paragraphs from the article that I wrote. The partial sentence, "the denominaiton I used to associate with" refers to the Way Internaitonal. 

There should not be a single doctrine which magnifies some at the expense of others.  Only God the Father and his Son Jesus are to be exalted.  Yet today we have false doctrines such as the pope being the Vicar of Christ, or that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the denomination I used to associate with.  He is surely not absent nor is anyone, regardless of which denomination he heads, be it big or small, the head of the body of believers.  The only head of the body of believers is seated at God’s right hand in the heavenlies, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It seems the Church, as made up of all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation, is continually in jeopardy of making its leaders as lords and even worse, mediators between God and men, when in fact, there is but one God and one mediator, the man Christ Jesus (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

KJV

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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2 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the denomination I used to associate with.  He is surely not absent nor is anyone, regardless of which denomination he heads, be it big or small, the head of the body of believers.

Wow, Mark, this is such a subtle deception that I succumbed to.  I didn't even ponder it until this very moment.  Nowhere in the bible does it say we take his place - I just checked - but I went along with this because of this verse:  Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

What a stretch from praying on behalf of Christ to taking his place!  None of us could do that, even if we are doing those greater works than he did.  The most we can be is part of the body.  WOW!!!  Thank you so, so much.

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1 hour ago, Taxidev said:

Wow, Mark, this is such a subtle deception that I succumbed to.  I didn't even ponder it until this very moment.  Nowhere in the bible does it say we take his place - I just checked - but I went along with this because of this verse:  Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

What a stretch from praying on behalf of Christ to taking his place!  None of us could do that, even if we are doing those greater works than he did.  The most we can be is part of the body.  WOW!!!  Thank you so, so much.

Isn’t it great when that lightbulb goes on over your head! :anim-smile:

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On 8/5/2018 at 10:22 AM, penworks said:

Speaking of Viktor Frankl ...  I recently returned from paying my respects at Auschwitz and Birkenau, which is in Poland. All day we walked through the former physical location of hell on earth.

Being there, I felt an even deeper shame that I ever considered Wierwille "the man of God." He not only denied the Holocaust but sold the book, The Myth of the Six Million.

When I'm ready, I'll be writing about this on my own website.

From the book's description on Amazon, "Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl's memoir has riveted generations of readers with its descriptions of life in Nazi death camps and its lessons for spiritual survival. Between 1942 and 1945 Frankl labored in four different camps, including Auschwitz, while his parents, brother, and pregnant wife perished. Based on his own experience and the experiences of others he treated later in his practice, Frankl argues that we cannot avoid suffering but we can choose how to cope with it, find meaning in it, and move forward with renewed purpose. Frankl's theory-known as logotherapy, from the Greek word logos ("meaning")-holds that our primary drive in life is not pleasure, as Freud maintained, but the discovery and pursuit of what we personally find meaningful."

I realized a similar kind of shame while watching a documentary on the Diary of Anne Frank, coming to grips with the fact that it was written over a 2 year period while that little girl was hiding out in secret crawlspaces in their house they constructed to avoid the Nazi investigators.  They were finally turned in by a neighbor out of fear.

I believe that VPW used to call that one fictional, or fake.

Thx for sharing.

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On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:03 PM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

In the 1980s as I was leaving the Way International, I wrote an article titled, THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST - Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man. Below is one of the paragraphs from the article that I wrote. The partial sentence, "the denominaiton I used to associate with" refers to the Way Internaitonal. 

There should not be a single doctrine which magnifies some at the expense of others.  Only God the Father and his Son Jesus are to be exalted.  Yet today we have false doctrines such as the pope being the Vicar of Christ, or that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the denomination I used to associate with.  He is surely not absent nor is anyone, regardless of which denomination he heads, be it big or small, the head of the body of believers.  The only head of the body of believers is seated at God’s right hand in the heavenlies, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It seems the Church, as made up of all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation, is continually in jeopardy of making its leaders as lords and even worse, mediators between God and men, when in fact, there is but one God and one mediator, the man Christ Jesus (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

KJV

WOW - taking the place of the absent Christ!!!  Makes me think of the original lie -- Ye shall be as gods.  Thank God I don't have to take his place. What a burden.  We can't do that!  Ridiculous.  Haven't thought that way in so long it's hard to believe I ever did.

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