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  1. Hello, Greasespotters. Just letting you know that another significant review of Undertow was just published by the International Cultic Studies Association, Inc. By permission, I've republished it here: Book Review of "Undertow," Published by ICSA, Written by Bart Stewart (charleneedge.blogspot.com) Remember, no author vets reviewers. ICSA put out the word about Undertow and this reviewer chose it. Their review is their response to the book, their opinions, their interpretations. Also, keep in mind this reviewer used other sources about The Way besides Undertow in his review. Enjoy! Charlene Edge
    3 points
  2. When a brown metal folding chair seems to be the only kind that feels comfortable so you tell your local Leadership that and act like its a good thing.... You just might be brainwashed. When you can't remember if it's your night to bring the coffee, or the cookies, so you just bring both because you know you'll get reproved if you bring the wrong thing... You just might be brainwashed. When the dial in number goes dead and there's no sound but you just stare at the speaker because you want to report to Leadership what you did and tell them "that's just how faithful" you really are... You just might be brainwashed. If your local Leaders criticizes a local "believer" because they don't give a lot in abundant sharing by saying "I'm glad I don't have to try and live off what they give!" and you don't take the opportunity to tell them what an asshole they really are... You just might be brainwashed. (and yes, they all actually happened)
    3 points
  3. I thought some of you might enjoy this lovely choral music. My choir is singing this piece (and others) at our concert in late March (the main piece is Faure Requiem). I find it hard to get this out of my head. The accompanying video is lots of shots inside various English cathedrals, some of which, or some parts of which, date back around 1000 years. Those with an architectural eye will notice a wide variety of building styles.
    2 points
  4. Many GSC readers will be familiar with Steven Hassan's name and anti-cult message. This TED talk by Hassan is poignant (and has been for more than 40 years) and is salient today. It's less than 14 minutes long. The concept is far from limited to religion (including fundamentalist groups like twi) or politics. Hassan cites other ways people might be subject to this kind of mental/emotional manipulation. BTW, all humans are subject to being conned. I have been and not only by Victor Wierwille or Loy Martindale.
    2 points
  5. "If your local Leaders criticizes a local "believer" because they don't give a lot in abundant sharing by saying "I'm glad I don't have to try and live off what they give!" and you don't take the opportunity to tell them what an .... they really are... You just might be brainwashed. " Well, maybe if their believing was in shape, that would be MORE than they needed. It's only a failure of their OWN believing that made it necessary to try to make a living off someone's giving. How about making saddles for a living? I know it's still a current job on the market.
    2 points
  6. Picking up this thread after a looong search for the best thread pick up, hope I judged correctly enough! I am comparing the structure and teachings/inferences in the Assembly of God church I am now a partner in, w/ those of twi/vpw et al. The irony of vp lauding the early church model of church in the home, i.e a grassroots movement, and condemning later "organized" denominations that met in church buildings, really strikes me. (Especially in light of the current movement of many church-building-churches to emphasize small groups that meet in homes, as well as the large gatherings in the church building on Sunday.) He CLAIMED a decentralized free-flowing Spirit-led movemen t, whi ch it was in some key ways; but ALWAYS, he was to be honored as the Apostle Paul was, (claims to the contrary), and kept an iron grip on the power, money, psyches, and Biblical doctrines of twi. In CONTRAST, the Assembly of God folks (not that I have allegiance towards any particular denom), emphasize small groups, have a lead pastor VERY accountable to a local board, and have a central office somewhere in Indianapolis I assume, and I THINK a US headquarters? The Way Tree myth that elevated Jerusalem got implanted in my cultized brain, I am more fully realizing. The AOG church as a whole is structured much more like the 1st Century church in keyways, than twi ever was!!! Twi HEADQUARTERS WAS THE CHURCH BUILDING/physical location that ppl identified with and flocked to whenever possible, magnified 1000 times! Names like the Biblical Research Center, or WOW Auditorium didn't really change a THING IMO. Yes, human beings tend to ID with and attach to physical locations, especially where their hearts are drawn to God. But the concept that twi was the 1st Century church in the 20th, was PURE FICTION AND DECEPTION. (Sometimes I still long for the free flow of how twi grew, and I do love how the early church was apparently structured and flowed. Apparently the Gospel is moving beautifully in India with Sangat Bain's ministry which is based only on home churches, and has Zero Headquarters.) But right now, I am learning, growing, and worshipping in this local church which BTW, is connecting more and more w/ other churches in our town, YAY!) And am coming out of Cult Fog, and viewing the Evolution of The "Biblically-centered" Church from it's earliest days until now as something to learn from, honor, and feel a part of. Thank you GSC-ers for still being here!!
    2 points
  7. I doubt your conclusions Raf, though I respect your right to voice them.
    2 points
  8. twi is still run by old fogeys who seized power so they could have the money and the power, and won't let go. They're trying to figure out how to interest young people, since without young people, twi's fading into obscurity. It's an old people ministry that hasn't appealed to young folks since the 1980s, and that means, as their population ages out and some drop dead of old age and others leave, they don't have any replacements to pay 10% or more of their income because they are suckers to keep the luxuries coming in for the people at the top. So, twi now has a handful of old farts in power trying to convince young people that twi is actually relevant and meaningful. How are they doing that? They're reviving what worked in the 1970s with the baby boomers, in their own foolish youth. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
    2 points
  9. I feel that, thanks Waysider. I have more to share but it took 25 years to tell my story. I'm still basking in the relief of letting the first chapter out. It's been a marathon of a life. Thanks for seeing me.
    2 points
  10. My work on GSC is complete. Thank you for giving me a place to vent and I wouldnt be where I am now if it wasnt for my time here. Some of you if not all may think im crazy. I was crazy and this isnt the same. I thought I was crazy in the beginning too...its fine. https://www.eyesupandopen.org/index.php/articles-from-various-authors/my-testimony-expanded-version
    1 point
  11. God bless you OldSkool. I wish you prosperity in your heart and soul and family relationships. I also hope you never fret about whether anyone thinks you're crazy. We all have stories. I can see a long life and many adventurous stories for you in the years to come.
    1 point
  12. God speed and God continue to bless you!
    1 point
  13. You've found me smiling, friend.
    1 point
  14. To your point about consensus, I think the scholarly consensus these days is Moses did not exist as a historical figure. The opposite position was consensus not too long ago.
    1 point
  15. 1 point
  16. 1 point
  17. Thank you for articulating these things!!!
    1 point
  18. That's it in a nutshell.
    1 point
  19. How can I not be deceived by other cults? I don’t want to join another one. https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98 Reddit thread on this question. Some insightful commentary. For me it was partially self delusion. I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose. All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false. There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning. Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning. And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position. There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.
    1 point
  20. Heck. Does anybody care about this deluded fellow? Honestly, the best thing that he can do is to join a good church that really works with disadvantaged people, then "get his hands dirty" learning to serve others. Before he does that, however, he needs to acquire a large roll of duct tape, zip his lips, and just watch and learn. Nothing that comes out of his mouth will be helpful.
    1 point
  21. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/q202RXmiNV So they are starting out younger and younger targeting the kids. Here’s the Mormons with a Stake President writing letters to 11 year olds. The next generation is where the cult interest is.
    1 point
  22. "Ruby Tuesday" from Between The Buttons, which, in my opinion, may be one of the Stones finest albums. (I lost interest in the band after the passing of Brian Jones.)
    1 point
  23. the topic nazi .... lol like the soup nazi, ya know I have been on topic, very much so.... my attorney is Jesus Christ
    1 point
  24. Looking at some writings by Aristotle, I came across a method for rhetorical analysis of writings, speeches, texts, etc. https://www.scribbr.com/academic-essay/rhetorical-analysis/ Since we are analyzing the Bible and various other works I thought it might be interesting to introduce this angle of analysis. It leads to such questions as what is the logical appeal? Emotional appeal? Or appeal to authority? This might be also helpful in an analytic discussion.
    1 point
  25. Thank you for posting that beautiful visual and auditory feast of awe. Today's new (to me) book, is AWE: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How it Can Transform Your Life. There were times in my young adulthood (50 or so years ago) and during my early life in twi, when I experienced everyday wonder. Of course, at that time, I attributed it all to God, as defined by Victor Wierwille. Anyway, in this book, I am encouraged to look for, seek out, awe in my everyday life. Beauty in cultural expression is one place to find it. I was touched with a sense of awe listening to that choir. No doubt, you and your fellow choir members singing that beautiful piece with a deep sense of love and awe will touch all of those who get to hear you.
    1 point
  26. NYTimes has this (apparently a gift article, because I could read it even though I don't subscribe to NYT) This report doesn't spell out Community of Jesus as a cult, but it seems to examine well, the young Mr Bushnell's mental approach. He rejected a good bit of his cult upbringing. He went to mental health therapy and encouraged a female friend with whom he apparently grew up to do the same. He had deep empathetic tendencies (which is a good thing). He WILL not immediately be forgotten, as this kind of sacrifice does get cited in news stories after the fact. My heart aches for him as I envision the ongoing good he could do by choosing to survive. Various aspects of growing up in a cult are apparent for those with experience to recognize it. Notably for me, that he was apparently neither taught nor had modeled for him by elders ways to cope with difficult ethical and moral dilemmas.
    1 point
  27. Not that I expect anyone to listen to four hours of debate, but I did want to demonstrate that the subject matter warrants more than a dismissive reference to Melville.
    1 point
  28. I wish we could discuss politics here, respectfully. I'd even pay a monthly fee! LOL
    1 point
  29. Notable indeed... especially to us, because we were familiar with this particular cult. I wonder if any academics have compiled credible data about the scope, time, and lack of meaningful accountability. I'd sure be interested in delving into such data. Btw, according to a WaPo story, the Air Force E-4 (who self-immolated on Sunday) had been a part of a: "But how a young man who liked The Lord of the Rings and karaoke became the man ablaze in a camouflage military uniform remains a mystery, even among some of his closest friends. "Bushnell was raised in a religious compound in Orleans, Mass., on Cape Cod, according to Susan Wilkins, 59, who said she was a member of the group from 1970 to 2005. She said that she knew Bushnell and his family on the compound and that he was still a member when she left. Wilkins said she heard through members of Bushnell’s family that he eventually left the group. "Wilkins’s account is consistent with those of multiple others who said Bushnell had told them about his childhood in the religious group or who had heard about his affiliation from his family members. "The group, called the Community of Jesus, has faced allegations of inappropriate behavior, which it has publicly disputed. In a lawsuit against an Ontario school, where many officials were alleged to be members of the U.S.-based religious group, former students called the Community of Jesus a “charismatic sect” and alleged that it “created an environment of control, intimidation and humiliation that fostered and inflicted enduring harms on its students.” Multiple people who said they were former members of the Community of Jesus described their years after leaving the compound as particularly challenging. They said former members, soon after they depart the group, often long for a sense of belonging. “A lot of us that got out are very much into social justice, trying to defend those who don’t or can’t defend themselves, because that is what we went through,” said Bonnie Zampino, 54, who said she was a member of the group for three years in the 1980s. "Wilkins also said it is common for members of the Community of Jesus to join the military, describing the transition as moving from “one high-control group to another high-control group.”" Emphasis mine. Also, the link to their website was mine, and very easy to find. I figure we'll learn more about SrAirman Bushnell in the days to come. However, high-control group is a significant indicator of cults, according to Steven Hassan. There's no indication thus far that Bushnell's decision was based on anything other than his own personal conviction about the war. But it seems obvious he was locked into a cultish mindset. Very sad and tragic, especially for his family. Btw, he apparently was only 25. Meaning Ms. Wilkins would have only known him as a small child.
    1 point
  30. Oh, no doubt about it, there have been all KINDS of power etc abuses in just about EVERY denomination or Christian movement, especially those getting attention recently. Twi definitely did not have a special corner on that! However, the length of time vp was able to abuse young women sexually, keep it all a secret, influence twi culture in big ways, and NEVER be held accountable in any effectual way is notable IMO.
    1 point
  31. We don't have the apostles' side of the story, only Paul's and whoever wrote Acts to make Paul's claims fit just right. It seems to me Acts is fan fiction. Does the chronology of Paul's travels in Acts even line up with what Paul himself chronicles in his own letters? I know, I know. There's a glove for that. Don't forget about Tacitus.
    1 point
  32. Yeah and also we have the VPW “new and improved harmony of the gospels 2.0” in the book written by Charlene’s co-workers “Jesus Christ Our Passover”. The lack of harmony produced a gap allowing Metallica to insert a band in there and make their own harmony with “Enter the Sandman” and “Nothing Else Matters”. As an obscure reference, this also won’t translate lol
    1 point
  33. And you have a sarcastic wit like myself which can help or hinder research lol
    1 point
  34. Is this like the quote on how 95% of statistics are made up on the fly including this one? Would it not be more helpful to summarize the scholarly consensus and provide detail like so we all can trace the logic?
    1 point
  35. But, then again, it might simply mean you're "on the ball".
    1 point
  36. If you hear the joke about "millions now smoking" for the 758th time and laugh on cue... You just might be brainwashed.
    1 point
  37. Will give it a listen, thanks!
    1 point
  38. vpw did indeed play a historically significant part in the Jesus Revolution. By being the person who single-handedly ended the House of Acts, he ended the emerging movement of genuine Christianity and guidance of the Holy Spirit among the young of California, who already were making national headlines. As such, vpw did more to impede the movement of God's Word and replace it with calcifying religion than anyone else that decade. I'm sure the devil was VERY impressed with him.
    1 point
  39. yeah, funny how Craig was the one who shut down the roa killed for his own reasons.....thinking back on it I think he was offended and jealous of everyone being there and having a great time. This is part of how he took down twi, part of his plan cause I think he saw how really deceitful and evil some of twi is.
    1 point
  40. Those do look like old photos! brining may be a typo but it kinda fits. I assume they want to invoke memories of events long past, get the old time vibe going. "Better than ever, even better than best!" The age qualification reeks of a generational cleansing. The oldest would be born in 1989. The mid to late 80's saw the first influx of evacuees, post Geer taking a dump on the whole thing in 86. Martindale "resigned" in 2000. Will there be a "Rest for the Aged" event for the elders? A "Senior Acres of Shakers" drum circle? Maybe a virtual "Don't Stop Breathing Or Believing!" cheese and whine pairing event? The original RoA was a night during the Winter Advance of 1971 that was called Rock of Ages. That summer of 1971 was the first R of A gathering. Over the next few years the event went from local fairgrounds to the Way's property in New Knoxville, "the farm". It took on a life of it's own and to a great degree became a social meet up of the Way Corps each year. Early on it became a homecoming event for WOW Ambassadors. People from other countries came as the outreach reached out. I remember the year after Emporia'd been up and running and the RoA meeting when Martindale spoke to the Corps there and crowed on and on about how he had a great realization that hey! we don't just have to get together to have FUN, not that there's anything WRONG with that but hey! he could MEET with Corps, those coming into Emporia, going out, interested in the program, DO SOME WORK, get work done MOVING THE WORD. My wife and I looked at each other and thought the same thing - uh oh, there goes that. He and his leadership clones at Emporia, then staff then all the field leadership all suddenly came to the same "realization" and it became an all day schedule of them trying to figure out reasons to meet because they didn't want everyone having FUN all day. The social side of it was something that was natural and followed the social trends of the youth culture of that era. Both coasts were developing the new formats for concerts and events, Woodstock had occurred, etc. etc. The R of A's generated out of that social atmosphere, with their own twist. VPW had his own ideas of course and he spoke of it being a time for WC to meet each other, kind of an in house Tinder hook up for singles. I am well aware of all the discussions that have exposed the sexual activities over the years but to be honest, whoever was hooping up, from VPW on down, they kept their sexual partnering pretty secret and the edges I saw or heard about weren't common knowledge. In most legal settings what they did would meet the criteria for "lies" and lying, as there was intent to deceive and knowingly defend a false set of statements or facts....but I digress. It was garden variety lying and corrupt behavior imo, redefined by whoever wanted to into whatever they wanted to justify. But as far as it being a social gathering and people of like mind meeting each other - sure. It was plenty of that. If I were them, and I'm not but if I were - and I'm not - I'd take a stepback and get the temperature of the membership, see what's going on and make room for something new and current to develop. Freshen it up. Allow for some spontaneous combustion. Set the stage, make the space, see what can be done. Inclusive, not exclusive. Everyone, at least all their tag bearing members current in their abs dues. And try doing something different than getting together in Ohio in August for God's Sake! which is part of the hottest muckiest periods in Ohio. In todays' world they will not want to play fast and loose or take the position that it's "their place" and they can do what they want. They can't. If they f it up, they'll be toast before you can say "liability". But hey - peace and love! Thanks for the memories Junior!
    1 point
  41. I did a bit of a deep dive into these young people and many of them are the sons and daughters of old Way people. 3rd generation lifers, not new people. Word Wolf makes sense with his comment. I just want a Wow Burger.
    1 point
  42. I mentioned in my post that I didn't know what the criminal code was in the US. I also took for granted that posters knew I was from Canada. Thanks for clarifying this at the beginning of your post. The terms are specific like you say: abuse, conduct, assault, misconduct and exploitation. The fact that IHOPKC's spokesperson used the words "inappropriate behavior" and "sexual immorality" shows they want to stay away from legal definitions to safeguard themselves. The Advocate Group who represents the victims and includes a lawyer used "clergy sexual abuse" in both of their public statements.
    1 point
  43. Of Bickle: “There are many misrepresentations of my words and actions in these communications including statements that are out of context, greatly exaggerated, or blatantly false,” Bickle said in his statement. He also said he thought his past misdeeds were “dealt with and under the blood of Jesus.” Sounds not unlike "anything done in the love of God is okay," including assaulting other men's wives. Hmph. John 11:35.
    1 point
  44. Good. F this guy and all charlatans like him. Allegations of abuse spanning DECADES from several credible women. Wow. So much sorrow for merely “inappropriate” behavior. Really, his “sin” did it. It’s the sin’s fault. BULLSHONTA!!
    1 point
  45. I find certain characteristics of different cults remind me of TWI. The whole Plaffy witnessing running classes to me reminds me of the JWs and their dogged determination to “witness” meaning putting a watchtower pub in someone's hands or referring someone to JW.org that seems pretty similar. The Mormons have all their positions as voluntary like bishops and Q70 or Q12 but demand the tithe out of followers. That to me is similar to the Way how they handle staffing and money. The Way Corps to me seems a lot like Scientology’s Sea Org. A billion year commitment to making the world “clear”. Using people paying them nothing shuffling them around doing the bidding of LRH or Miscavidge. So to me The Way seems like a blend of a number of cult tactics and characteristics. Like a cult souffle.
    1 point
  46. you havent missed out on anything. I reached out to them in my first 6 months out of TWI, somehow thinking something would be different. And to be clear, they are all different from each other as they have all taken what they liked from TWI and rebranded it with their own additions and spin. But at the end of the day its the same ole trap.
    1 point
  47. I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says, For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word For Those Who Want to Know Obviously, the first line is not true since they continue to teach the Word "according to vp," who according to their fictional description of the founder writes, "For over forty years, Dr. Wierwille devoted his major energies to intensive research and teaching of the accuracy of God’s Word." (Makes you wonder what his "minor" energies went into .) It's the second line, "For Those Who Want to Know." To me, it strongly suggests exclusivity which we know they were famous for under the first 3 presidents. Why not declare, "For all who want to know;" better yet, why have a second line at all? Is it trying to compliment people into taking pfalt? If so, it reminds me of The National Enquirer's slogan, "Enquiring minds want to know." Whatever their reason, it does not sound like unconditional love.
    1 point
  48. “Dr. Edith Eva Eger is my kind of hero. She survived unspeakable horrors and brutality; but rather than let her painful past destroy her, she chose to transform it into a powerful gift—one she uses to help others heal.” —Jeannette Walls, author of The Glass Castle “The Choice is a gift to humanity. One of those rare and eternal stories that you don’t want to end and that leave you forever changed. Dr. Eger’s life reveals our capacity to transcend even the greatest of horrors and to use that suffering for the benefit of others. She has found true freedom and forgiveness and shows us how we can as well.” —Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Eger, Edith. The Choice: Embrace the Possible (p. I). Scribner. Kindle Edition.
    1 point
  49. Here's another relevant link: It’s 1944 and sixteen-year-old ballerina and gymnast Edith Eger is sent to Auschwitz. Separated from her parents on arrival, she endures unimaginable experiences, including being made to dance for the infamous Josef Mengele. When the camp is finally liberated, she is pulled from a pile of bodies, barely alive. The horrors of the Holocaust didn’t break Edith. In fact, they helped her learn to live again with a life-affirming strength and a truly remarkable resilience. The Choice is her unforgettable story. **** Btw, now in her 90s, Edith is still alive "and kicking." Her story is phenomenal.
    1 point
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